Source: Today on Rocketboom, Molly highlights the thought experiment that is the Two Generals’ Problem. Follow us on Twitter @rocketboom and be our friend on Facebook for behind the scenes photos and videos.
Today on Rocketboom, Molly highlights the thought experiment that is the Two Generals’ Problem.
Follow us on Twitter @rocketboom and be our friend on Facebook for behind the scenes photos and videos.
Leave a Reply
Facebook Comments:
Posted by rocketboom | on | Filed under Daily News, Topical
home | video archives | about | chat | youtube | subscribe
You don’t send a messenger, you synchronize your watches before then attack at the appointed time. Didn’t the A Team teach you anything?
they should just use Global Hawk’s to fly over eachother, drop a tube containing the message, and use the on board cameras to confirm receipt
I would guess that the general who sent the first messenger should order the messenger to return in order to confirm that the message was delivered. If the messenger doesn’t return then the general is safe to assume that the message was not delivered.
That;s the simplest answer. If you want to incorporate technology then there is a huge number of solutions.
I like the way she says, “Ornly way of communicating.” : )
The first General should send 100 messengers, with the message “we attack at 0900, this is message N of 100 duplicate messages” The odds that all messengers will be prevented from reaching their destination is low, and the receiving general will know this, because he will receive multiple messages and know how many were sent. The attack will go on at 0900, and will be likely, though not certain to succeed.
This reminds me of my network communications course.
One of the teams has a advantage here, the first general has molly in a tight skirt and bra. He sends her over to get captured, but instantly the second army falls in love by here eyes. Later that night the first army arrives and takes care of the first army while they are sleeping. Thus, molly wins.
Invent teh internets!!!!!
@GroundedControl What if the army is smaller than that? I think the solution doesn’t depend on probability.
This is basically an analogy of how communications protocols work. The solution is to put a time limit on all “packets” or messages – ie if you don’t receive acknowledgement within x amount of time, resend the packet. Keep resending the packet/message until you get an acknowledgement. To avoid sending the same message forever and ever you might want to give up (timeout) after a while if no acknowledgement is received.
X.25 FTW!!!
just attack
@Massap2 you fail, they’re both on the same side.
use a protocol:
- A message is only completed if you have confirmation
- send a message via messenger
- If confirmation has not arrived after time X, assume that message has not been delivered, send another messenger, repeat until you receive confirmation
Rubberbands.
WHY IS EVERY ONE WHO WATCHES THESE A FRIGGIN PERVERT!?
leave the poor girl alone seriously its not pr0n, if you wanna see hot chicks go watch some of that tat, then you can see them NAKED
yeah? sounds like a good idea dont it?
i didn’t know they made green lego people…
@SonyFoLife No.
That’s what war horns are good for (you know the things that make a lot of noise)
They should invent telecommunications.
This is easy. Stop playing the what-if game and light up your cannons. That will get the message across faster than any message runner.
if the 1st messenger returns, then you know it has been delivered, if he doesnt return in a respectable time, then the messenger is probably dead and the message has not been received by the 2nd general :p
discover the internet and get Android phones.
@SonyFoLife because porn people are one dementional. even if they bother to cater to nerdy type people its still pretty one dementional. Molly is funny and nerdy and cute, thus better then a naked chick who is none only 1 for 3 of those things.
FAP
@SonyFoLife Didn’t you know she does porn?
use helecoptor messangers
or telephone offcourse
Use a cellphone.
It’s a trap!
eat pie dhoooo
Pretty Molly is Pretty.
And articulate.
And also, um… well-coiffed.
o_O
Think ahead, and encode the message. Done. That’s why we invented codes to begin with.
Also: Where can I get Lego Armymen like that?
Inception BWOOOOONG
Fire a flare, or forget that and just bomb the firetruck out of em.
Just scream, “Leeeeeeerrroooooyyyyyy Jeeeennnnnnnnkkkkiiiiinnnnsss!” and run in guns blazing!
@gabrielk310 the spy is a spy !
OH NOES!!!!!1
they should tweet it.
Molly is so beautifull. OMG!!!
While watching the video, i thought: ‘omg the comments would be so funny’
use smoke / big fire
use MORSE CODE. Ships used it to communicate at sea long ago
I’m fairly sure that’s why God created twitter
the generals should deliver the message themselves.
@gabrielk310 The cake is a lie.
maybe they should invent msn-messenger
Use the same messenger each time.
They should send a spy general.
And the moral of the story is: don’t shoot the messenger.
Stop fighting and go play pikmin.
Decide that war isn’t the answer and retreat. Problem solved.
Have Rocketboom deliver the message so everyone is sure to see it.
Don’t kill the messenger. <_<
use Twitter
Interesting, Professor Falken. The only winning move is not to play the game.
syn/ack
Tweet each other. Duh.
suicide….
Since they’re both there to attack the city there shouldn’t be any problem with just starting the attack.
easy use call commands, before the battle the generals obviously had to have met or had some communications. when one general sends out the messenger and reaches the other general gives out the question call, like “toast” and if the answer is “grape” then he is authenticated. a second answer call would also be created to signify the messenger has been compromised ad the messenger would give up this word to signal the general that the messenger is a spy and can be apprehended.
They could always text?
@willytodanilly the spy answer could be peanut butter
balls to you!
cant they send 2 messengers each?
Solution, invent signal fires and telecommunication.
alternatively you could just call the other general with a phone
TEXT
general 1: hey bro were ready
general 2: kk ((alright guys lets go)) thanks man
general 1: anytime bro
mine was get a phone
Noclip.
TEXT (with text delivery confirmation)
@veyron92 That doesn’t work. You still don’t know if the last confirmation got through. You know the other one’s got the message but you don’t know if he knows you received the message (until your messenger informs him that the two soldiers did get back from the rendez-vous to give you the message, he cannot be sure you really did get the info). So you send the soldier to him, but how do you know he arrived safe? You are back where you were.
The two generals should have prepared beforehand in case such a problem came up. That or send a small group to harass the town, showing the other general you’re good to go, than the full force can storm in
Why is there a legoman with two heads? Did they not have lego in Britain when Molly was growing up?
Send up a flare
What if the two messengers, after meeting in the middle, are intercepted on their way to the opposite generals?
set a date and time for attack and Gen 1 sends the time, Gen 2 recieves, Gen 2 sends 2 “OK” messages to ensure delivery, Gen 1 recieves, Gen 1 and Gen 2 attack.
I’m not so sure about generals, but I sure knows that you can’t never get medic to deliver messages because they might drop their medicine on the way..
Any answer involving not attacking or using another form of communication is cheating.
Send out ten simultaneous messengers with the basic message AND the total number of messengers sent, and instructions to reply using at least as many return messengers (depending on the rate of capture) within a reasonable set time frame.
The first general should include within the original message to send a smoke signal or flare at a specified time to confirm message was receive.
Answer- Have your messenger return to you after he gives the message to confirm the message was sent. If he doesn’t come back, then the message was not sent. That wasn’t a hard riddle at all.
“make love not war sounds so absurd to me”
This is why the nuclear bomb was invented?
*head explodes
MAKE A UPDATE VIDEO ON BOXXY NAO!!!
@Paradoxed25 then the second general will proceed to attack assuming that the first general will attack. However, since the first general thinks the message did not make it he will not attack and the second general attacks alone
They should watch Rocketboom, retweet Yokoono & go bird watching because like fishing it has never been easier and now for some Buddy Holly, If You knew MollyBoo then You’ld know why I feel blue about Molly My Molly Boo hoo hoo My Molly Boo Molly Molly Molly Molly Boo I love You Molly Boo wait one …Line?
well, the general who sends the message just has to wait for the guy who sent the message to come back O.O
Kill the enemy with fire
theey should just go home
An hero.
That’s what.
they should use windows live messenger!
@Paradoxed25 – The same messenger could be killed on the way back.
Cell phones. Problem solved.
To all the people suggesting flares: kind of ruins the element of surprise doesn’t it?
and then came LEROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYY JJJJJEEEEEEENNNNNKKKKKKIIIIIINNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSS
@Paradoxed25 he could have been captured on the way back
set a date, confirm the date 2 times.
They could both watch Wikileaks because it will show up there before anyone else gets it.
@Makosis Then they might as well just storm in the city randomly.
Paradox week 2?
@adirm18 i guess you missed the part where she said “the ONLY way to communicate is by a messenger”
T1-message: ready to attack
T2-received: message out
T1-received; attack
bloody coup.
Get Kik messenger for their android phones.
@manav95 They only have one way of communicating.
They should use smoke signals, drums, or banners and flags, the kinds of thing armies used to communicate before the days of radio.
It’s impossible that the ONLY way to communicate is by messenger. They can fire shots, use drums, wave flags, use smoke signals.
they could use moar CowBell!!!!
@Ayjayo
You will never understand untill you see that blank comment field and the “0 comments” letters above the box…..nothing else matters, all that matters is being first. It is primitive and feral, going back to man’s primitive nature on the internet. Much like how all activity stops on a chan when on hunt for a Great Get.
Eventually a letter of receipt will make it through and shit will do down.
attach string to two cups, talk back and forth between those two cups.
cell phones?
facebook’ll solve all your problems
Have a party
Just attack. That’s what everyone did in yon olden days anyway
the first one tells the other one “you attack first and when i hear you attacking we will join in” herp a derp a derp
go around the vally
that way he will not be captured
use skype
Just establish smoke signals or shots fired as the start signal. Put in the message, “If this message that I am ready to attack has arrived and you are also ready, send up a smoke signal or fire three shots.”
stop fighting!
all you need is love <3 ;D
send an owl
IMPOSSIBRU
This might have once been an interesting question.
send a message that says to attack. if they see the other army attacking, they know they got the message and attack too….
pigeons…
Start randomly killing people till the other guy gets it.
I cannot believe how many people are taking this seriously and are completely missing the point.
blast a cannon an agreed number of times to confirm receipt
@NearlyFreeSpeech She has a personal Youtube channel. You could try there. [youtube] /mememolly
assume they received the message and attack that way if the other side did not get the message they will see the fighting and join
1st message should inform the 2nd general that the army is ready to attack and contain the following instructions:
(hopefully in code unknown by person delivering the message and city [common practice in most armies] If captured enemy wont be able to deceive the army or know how to counter attack)
*acknowledgement of attack confirmation, and agreement of start should be signaled by a single fire on the north of town*(if armies on west and east)
^city wont know were army comes from from fire
set a date ahead of time for when to attack.
Twitter, of course.
text eachother
F*** it all, just bomb the place with a B-52 carrying a MAOB.
@monkeyfunforidiots Fuck off im not about to type that in to see this hoe..
This is the internet. They should call each other noobs, throw racial slurs at each other and blame lag or hacks when they lose
The LEGO Green Army Men! HECK YEAH!@!
Also, I’d say forget the need to confirm “message recieve” and just get to attacking.
send the messenger with a new AND the old message?
why do they need to they need to know that the other general is ready to attack? just charge them and win the battle with their pants down!
Attack!!!!!!!
oh btw where can i get green lego ppl
BUT WHO WAS MESSAGE!?
make a human chain of messengers.
Dont send a message back to confirm it. They are going to attack you!
They should get two phones.
@MyInterwebs
they can only communicate by messenger
it’s a thought experiment not a real life scenario, the can’t use “signal fires”
The letter should require visual confirmation of message received via flare, smoke or similar.
this is a real general problem.
ba dum tshhhh
well you see, one attacks and the other one will take that as a message and attack aswell
shoot a fucking flare
buy a fucking cell phone
become pacifists and get high
suicide
1st general should number the messages and sent as many as possible. When the 2nd receives at least one. He should have an idea of how reliable the channel is and respond using the messengers necessary, while asking in the message to attack as soon as the message is received.
^Not perfect but I believe might work given the limitations.
Experiment in attention spans, how many people reply with stuff like “Use a cell phone” or “Use a flare” completely forgetting the start of the problem stating that they can *only* communicate by messenger.
Wouldn’t just writing to attack on receiving work? that way the main force of the city would defend the (let’s say) east side and would get easily flanked from west thus creating a crossfire and ensuring the victory
the 1st general sends his messenger inquiring about the attack
if the second general gets the message he chooses the a time and sends the same messenger back.
he waits until the time and attacks hopefully in sync with the other general.
there foolproof way of solving this with messengers
They call in a tactical nuke, of course.
shoot his gun as the signal
Why wait for the other signal when you can stick it in their pooper?
Invest in Radio communication or better.
The first general sends his message
Then a tank happens
just attack
the messenger is packing heat
You use Guerrilla warfare tactics and just get it over with.
Watching Molly play with army men makes me want to fire off my artillery, if you know what I mean.
Ambush.
@flibber123 Don’t play with loaded guns!!!!
You put the message in to box you lock the box with a lock that only the 1st general has, then you send messenger to take the box to the other general who puts hes lock on to it that open only with hes key, messenger then takes this box back to the other general who the removed hes lock off the box and then It can be opened.
@MyInterwebs they can’t use smoke signals to communicate. That breaks the laws of the situation. They can only communicate with messengers.
Should the generals be played out by a cat on a piano?
since when do general tell the enemy they are going to attack lol what is this British empire times
Whoah, that’s so, like… deep… and shit.
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
Use a flare to signal when ready. /thread
That’s way too much for my brain to handle.
Anybody hear of radios? or cell phones? or i.m? just me? ok.
A barrel roll
Send the messenger back saying it was received? PROBLEM SOLVED!
@indianajonesanaheim2 she’s not British. She’s Australian.
They use fax machines. Or email. Barring that, send 5 seperate messengers, that way you all but guarantee that at least ONE of them will arrive. Or use a bike messenger. We ALWAYS get the delivery there, on time, regardless of conditions.
Why on earth would the attacking army want to warn the other ? I doesn’t make sense to conduct warfare that way.
SMS with a reading report notice! =D
sit down and have a cup of hot cocoa together and put the war aside. It takes more brains to work things out that to fight it out. Testosterone does not solve problems, it only makes more!~
they should all just have anal sex and sing songs.
Solution: Call in an Air strike.
considering that the population of that city (/forest) consists of unarmed midgets, I think it is safe to assume that the messenger will in fact come through.
Wow.Molly is just THAT awesomely gorgeously beautifully desirably perfectly attractively seductively sexily sweet that she gets more than a post a minute in the comment! SIGH… You’re THE BEST(and the PRETTIEST), Molly!!!
Solution: use or invent a new way to deliver a message that would be more efficient
you sweet !
Duh, facebook
they could skype each other lol
@staygulf83
Both generals are allies, they are in the same army. There are many generals in an army. Both generals could even be from different armies as long as they are allies and wish to attack the same target.
Theoretically the attack should start when the second messenger gets to the general with acknowledgement, right?
Seriously though, you gave your Lego army guys guns but you didn’t give them radios? You need to work on your military budget. And that city doesn’t look fit to resist them in any event!
@Thegoodkingnado Obsession much. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found out where she lived and stalked, observed, and raped her.
“fuck it, attack!!!!”
do a barrel roll
The message should have a time on it
CHARGE!
The answer is simple. Have every messenger return to homebase after delivering the message.
If they never return, they are dead.
if the message is reseeved, the one general should just attack. The other general will automaticlly know he got the message.
peace wouldn’t create such problems :3
@SonicTheHedgedawg But does the 2nd general know that the 1st general knows that the 2nd general knows that the 2nd message arrived? Nope.
One of them will always be unsure whether the last message arrived.
That means we need a message that is only important for the receiver to know has arrived.
But in this situation, both generals need to know that both generals know that both generals know that both generals know… and so on.
Get some damn cell phones…
@MyInterwebs No, the two can only communicate by means of messanger. Ie, they cannot see the other’s gunfire.
We’re going to need to consult Leeroy Jenkins about this one.
0:10 The guy standing on the right has two heads, the one in the back has no head.
@austin777136 bhahaha
)
@weehooherod Who needs consulting? Just charge in recklessly and hope it goes well.
use a smoke signal, or a kite, or a balloon
smoke signals.
burn the forest down
I hadn’t heard of this problem before, it makes for a nice thinking exercise, ty molly, ty rocketboom
It’s also fun to read the comments, very few people realise that is an actual unsolvable problem, not a riddle
One real life application of the problem is with wireless networking, where the data transfer can often be unreliable. How do you make a failproof protocol? The answer is, you can’t, you make one that is very very very unlikely to fail.
@TheFloydenstein
slow clap
problem solved
you win!
They should get cell phones
@fsmetal I think you have COD and the Internet mixed up.
Is that your haircut u mentioned on twitter?
idk maybe the fucking gun fire in the city is a good indication that at least one general was ready to attack
@RHawkeyed once the 4th messenger reaches the original general, both generals now know everything they need to know. The 2nd general never needs to know whether or not the 4th messenger arrived and, if he doesn’t arrive the 1st general merely needs to resend the 3rd messenger until he gets a response.
launch a flare
this is easy… use TCP.
SYN
SYN/ACK
ACK1 – I’m going to attack!
ACK2 – go ahead.
ACK/FIN
FIN
TCP. works every time.
Get cell phones?
@weehooherod LMAO. Good call
@MystikIncarnate I’m not hiring you as a network engineer.
They should fight to keep Europe white, and get rid of the Jews, Africans, Asians and Arabs.
Asian for Asians
Africa for Africans
Europe for everyone?
WTF…Anti-Racism is code word for Anti-White.
stormfront(dot)org
And no, its not just a bunch of skinheads, don’t over look it, give it a go and find out the truth.
@aureile01 Oops, thought they were attacking each other. Missed the bit about attacking the city !!. Thanks.
One general sends a message. Waits the needed time to get the message accross. Attacks without confirmation of comminucation because the general does not have time for this shite.
The second messenger could carry a flare and tell the general that once he got the message to fire the flare as a warning. They could give it 3 days so if he didn’t fire off the flare, they’d send another messenger. v(=o w o=)v
syncronize there fucking watches!
I love how many people have posted paragraphs they found on the internet as if you don’t already know the answer *cough* WOWJBEOWULF *cough* especially when it’s completely wrong
Also @woody500z. Asian for the Asians?……..that makes sense….lol ¦ )
the moment one starts shooting, the other will join the fun
Fire warning shots, INTO THE OTHER GENERALS HEADS!
i say shoot at them, and if you hear them yelling something like “how dare you sneak attack us” than they know that they never got the message.
Why you need to inform that you are attacking?
LEGOS!
Cell phones
This cannot be overly stated – LEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOY JJJJJJJENNKINS…
they could just dial a restricted line.
Get them to e-mail each other.
General1: U ready?
General2: Ya. Prepare to get owned, noob!
General1: >:(
they need lego cellphones.
Surprise attack!
No seriously, why don’t they just wave a flag or something…unless the other general is on the toilet and doesn’t see the flag.
hmmm…. How do you even know that the messenger is coming from the other general army or is acting on the general’s behalf? could just be a rogue messenger sent from some other person who wants them to go to war.
Seriously just attack, you don’t need to tell the other general you’re going to attack…
Just shoot each other already
hurray Rocketboom returns to intellectual paradoxes, this is why I subscribed in the first place
The Two Generals is only one part of the problem; as the militia would also send fake messages or alter captured messages and send them though–a real military study, as Generals couldn’t even trust their staff to not alter it, and would record the effects of each message for patterns of behavior and adjust it, the third problem. Communication skills alters the message, thus standards of communications are necessary to send a coherent message that can be properly understood: Common language.
@nanturadu not enough consanets, im sorry
@weehooherod But first you’ll have to get some hot chicken before he responds…
just kill eachother
@weehooherod Brilliant.
Broken communications of the Two Generals also highlights a fourth problem, was there ever a communication line that was functioning? Just like the German soldiers of World War Two attempting to run a telephone line through Stalingrad, the Russian snipers considered it their duty to shoot telephone line soldiers, thus the communication never existed and when used it as functional it is misleading. This solution is a continuous stream of messages, thus when the line is shot dead, it is obvious.
Well they should get a dam cell phone thats what they should do!
@chasq1 You spelled damn wrong
Someone here said the Two Generals should get a cell phone; that is the fifth problem: Standard equipment. In the invasion of Grenada they had a Navy and Army but nobody talked, as the Marines were running in circles around the enemy and the Army was still sitting up a beach head, with one artillery strike using a phone through American telephone switches, by calling card. Standard equipment is necessary for the message to be properly sent and received, or we see the inadequate work around.
cant the messenger go back to the other general and say the message was received?
use a radio
Dear Molly RocketBoobs,
Who are you people? Why the frakk are you postulating a battlefield situation at all? Didn’t you just get done telling us to stop playing with guns?! Now your playing with toy frakking soldiers! What the FRAKK!??
Get a real job and stop frakking with us!
@ABitwize it’s Bieber
the answer is simple… not declaring war is the best option, and each side should just go home and smoke some pot so there can be some peace for once
it is fuckin War . no one waits for the others to get ready..they just attack . element of surprise brings victory
ʎɐqǝ ɟɟo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ‘uɯɐp
not kill people?
Im sure if one side starts shooting, that means they are going to fight.
Fire a shot in the air at a certain time to ensure that the message was received..
Each General should just not be a part of this war.
THIS IS TCP!
Each side should just not be a part of this war,
think of all the lego kids that’ll lose a parent in it!!
@geurgeury no, it’s Beebuur. who cares
Go home.
Kill themselves..and we live happily ever after.
not fight war
cellphone?
facebook chat the other on their iphones
The Two Generals seventh problem is the turncoat general or non-team member general. The sixth problem of trust deals with authentication, but we have chain of command and what they service by the mission and roles; everything is authenticated and everything is proper; but one problem one is of the generals is not on the team: The message isn’t understood or incomplete, because the mission is wrong and they automatically discard it or alter it–this is also a common identity politics ploy.
I have seen the Two Generals seventh problem on stupid people who run to judges and legal prosecutors for safety; they are lawyers and they do know the law and legal process and are proper in law, but their mission is to prosecute you and you need an actual legal defender to defend you. Roles might alter also, but this is part of the picture of the Two Generals actually being on the same team.
ATTACK ANY WAY!!!! >=D
Just attack anyway, whether the other side’s ready or not, screw them!
nuke it end if story
one general should become a messenger
K O!
why would the generals warn each other “Hey I am going to attack prepare your army so i can take high casualities” thats smart
Invent the wlkie talkie.
Send up a flair if you get this message two if you need to be sure. Did you get it? I don’t see the flair.
Send 1000 messengers to send the initial message and another 1000 to acknowledge it.
if that fails nuke it from orbit.
BUT WHO WAS PHONE?
Just fucking shoot.
HOW ABOUT NOT FIGHT. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.
MOLOTOV
EVERYTHING
General A would have to send a squad of 3 to a near by spot to general B’s team and set down Flairs to this area the squad of 3 would then have to use stealth and lie in wait for a response team from team B to go to the flairs if enemy infantry intercepts then C4 would make light work of them the team of 3 would then meet up with the response team and exchange intelligence the team of 3 would then return to general A with the info and the response team would return to General B
Screw the messengers, just attack whenever.
walkie-talkie….
By the fourth messenger they both know that they both know so no more are necessary. BTW sending messengers to the other army would make much more sense if you were asking for a cease fire rather than warning of an attack which is much better done by surprise.
Finally decide upon secrecy.
Talk it out face to face.
I think the way out is to let the messengers return to their comrades after delivering the message. That way the first general will know if he didn’t get through and can send another one and only three round trips have to be made. Probably not the point of the though experiment though :>
both send out a messanger into the middle. They meet, tell the other one the message and then head back to there side, as there side would not fire on there own.
Agree on a time and then hope it went through.
What, two genitals a problem?
Russia, for World War Two, had bad communications, and had a preemptive order–any attack shall be responded immediately, even if it takes weeks or months for the government to decide that there is an actual war. Thus what Russia did, and helped create their 20-million deaths, is attack; the generals wouldn’t trust communications and attacked–Russia depends upon its size and cold winter as part of its defense, thus attack and talk about it later.
use encrypted sat coms…..noob
Give them cellphones.
Aw, shit. Well, I guess we’re just going to have to use common sense. AGAIN.
twitter.
One response to the Two Generals is do nothing, that was a response from South America, I believe Columbia, fired 3 or 4 generals who refused to take a 14-square mile town who stopped responding to the Government: No communications from the town means do nothing, for such a small nation, it just means corruption and creating a freehold.
nuke themselves
no more problem
i don’t fucking know about the generals, but molly’s hair looks really fucking adorable today
SMS~ Hello?
Stop using written and verbal messages and use flags or flares.
Babushka doll.
seek peaceful methods? develope better forms of communictation? your mother?
I say we take off, nuke the entire site from orbit.
It’s the only way to be sure.
Low Orbit Ion Cannon, nuff said.
ive actually thought of this problem ALOT!
Call the other one!
TCP uses a four-way handshake. If it’s good enough for the nettertubes, it’s good enough for lego war.
Shoot your message into a tree infront of them. There are also mirror morris code and opening fire. Both would be able to convey “yeah we’re attacking”.
Beat their swords into ploughshares, and study war no more.
Smoke signal?
I think.. they should…
MAN THE HARPOONS!
I think.. they should..
BRING IN THE BEAR CAVALRY!
I believe they did it with gun shots… audible to confirm
Molly is discussing knowledge as though it requires 100% certainty, but when I am 99.999% sure of something I think of it as knowledge. When we come to the question of whether I know that he knows that I know… etcetera times 50, then I don’t need to receive a messenger to assume that we just both know how it is and move on.
Tweet tweet!
He rocks in the treetop all day long. Bopping and a bobbing and singing his song. All the little birdies on jaybird street love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet.
Get cellphones?
send a man with an unusual tatoo so he can check to make sure its him
Use BBM or Kik or What’sApp. They confirm when a message has been read. XD
What should they do? I would do about 7
Use IM…
>~>
war is never the answear, so they should nuke the damn place and be done with it
Just to point out and ruin things.
Military operations are usually done by the clock.
Synchronising watches and deciding times is usually the first thing to do before a battle.
thats why you dont shoot the messenger
Use flares to signal that they have recieved the massage.
Preemptive Strike
hey guy if ur ready to attack shoot a flare in the air got it ok problem solved…molly y make thing so mush harder than they r i solved this like 5 diffrent ways in like to seconds
They can reverse whatever process got the general to receive the initial message. If it worked once, why not ALWAYS!?
Id say this dilemma should be worked out like messengers in war. After they’ve left the message they return to the once who sent the message
SIMPLE
use yahoo instead of windows live
First messenger: we are ready to attack at 1800 hours. Send a message back confirming this
Second: we have received your message
Attentively they could also bring a group of armed soldiers with the messenger, or even go around the where they are attacking.
they’ll destroy the city anyways
Nuke from orbit, its the only way to be sure.
Signal flare, gunshots, smoke signals. Tie a very long rope to the messenger and tug it thrice to singal a sent message
Get a cell phone like normal people.
They’ll kill each other anyways.
I got it! It’s a classic cass of Gametheory.
GCHAT
buy a goddamn phone. and if it hasnt been invented yet INVENT ONE MUHAHAHAHA
demote themselves
The Generals should meet in the middle.
Decide on when to attack the city before going to the hills. Problem solved!
Flaregun.
haven’t they ever heard of a phone?
Send messenger flying a white flag to deliver a message to the other general that you will surrender on an afternoon sometime tomorrow or after. Lead your troops out a few hours behind the first messenger with orders to kill all enemies. Chances are, your man shows up and offers surrender and opposing troops get drunk to celebrate and you crash the party and slaughter everyone or if the first messenger didn’t make it, you still show up unexpectedly and turn it into an unexpected blood bath. WIN?
Go around the city instead of through it. Common sense?
Flares.
Send Multiple Messengers.. with messages marked… and a lot so there is a small chance of failure..
BURN DOWN THE VALLEY
They should just text each other.
the first messenger should tell the general to use a flare when he is ready to attack, then the other general will know when he sees the flare that he received the message and is ready to attack. then they attack.
One general leaves the post with all of his men, and goes around the village to the other general, then they make love. The end
Wait, are both generals on the same side?
If they are on opposite sides, why tell the other they are attacking?
If they are on the same side, they should have worked out a better way of signaling each other.
they should molly to deliver the messages!
Get together and swap Molly stories …
How about IM? It’s a messenger too… and it’s instant!
1-they should booth get a cellphone.
2- how did they end up on different side of the city without a mean of communication … they should not be stupid to begin with.
3- seriously a cellphone!hello. even at old times there would be a messenger pigeons or something. communication by fire. by smoke…etc
4- one side can attack and the other general should be able to hear the screams of women and children so he will attack too.
5-I should get a life and drop it
they could use bonfires to get the message that the message was recivied? just a thought
Send the messager with weed and make peace.
should stop after 2
first message tells the other general to attack first when ready
Simple… they have to send a messenger right? Well, messenger would go from general one to general two with the message. After which point, he would have to return to general one. Would that messenger not simply be able to say ‘general two has recieved the message’?
@s4m5on both generals are on the same side! they’re preparing a joint attack
START KILLING ALL THE INNOCENT PEOPLE.
they are not going to kill themselves
get a fukin cell phone
I remember this in one of my computer science classes in college. Me and a friend kept thinking we could solve the problem.
Get a PA system & turn the volume up to 11.
@pokepokefanfan
well, a few will…
If you received the message, fire in the air three times.
Next question.
General 1 could just update his twitter…
They could just text each other. Then it would turn into the AT&T Problem.
send an armies worth of messengers so you can be sure at least one gets through.
but instead of messages, give them all guns.
and have the message be bullets.
Come up with a plan that doesn’t require the other general, but can benefit from him. Boom. Problem solved.
…Nah, never work. Just molotov everything.
First message should read “Ready or not here I come”
There is no perfect solution- they just need to keep sending the confirmation messages, until they are reasonably confident.
Or they could get a cellphone. Their choice.
you meet up in neutral territory?
meet in the middle…
Send in Gandalf on Halifax. He’s pretty smart.
They should have had an agreed upon time to attack. a messenger should only be sent if the attack is to be called off. In which case only one message is required. Whoever calls off the attack should send several messengers at different times following different routes. So as to maximize the likelyhood that at least one gets through.
The general sending the first message tells the other guy to strike first, then lines up his troops and wait for something to happen.
Why would they send messengers straight through the valley the hostile city is in the middle of?
Why don’t they just call each other? Sheesh.
Molly call me and I will tell you the answer to the problem…
Start a fire and send smoke signals :p
email each other or use the phone or something because that is just stupid
damn it molly i come here to gawk at and you not to get a headache
I dont get it..
You know wat?
Why not you do it like how Hitler did in 1939.
Short and Simple.
The second general, knowing that the first general was ready to proceed, would commence the attack when he was ready which would be his reply to the first general.
This problem was solved a loooong time ago… TELEPHONE
send a messenger instead of a message. if he doesn’t come back you attack since you can claim the opposite has harmed you man if he does come back you’ll know that the message was passed on
not fight a war
Duuh….get a long ass wire and two cups….problem solved
How can we answer such an open-ended question like this? What are the parameters? Are there technological constraints? Is there or is there not an agreed upon signal that is universal proof of message receipt?
No matter, simply send a messenger with the explicit instructions to fire off a unique sequence of shots into the air as proof of message receipt. Also, send multiple messengers all with the same instruction to ensure that at least one survives to deliver the message. That should do it.
On the message instruct the other general to fire a bullet into the air once he receives the message.
Or something to that tune.~
Use technology.
Message redundancy using five 2 man messenger elements via direct and flanking routes at simultaneous and staggered intervals. The first 3 elements go followed by the 2 overwatch elements. If one or more elements are engaged, the overwatch can either use the engaged element as a distraction and bound with the nearest unengaged element or CAT the engaged element to create a larger distraction allowing the other elements to get through. Receipt can be returned in a similar fashion.
send a text message
Or respond with one ping only.
send first messenger with a carrier pigeon. When messagener delivers message the second general can send a second message back to the first general by way of carrier pigeon. Problem solved.
Too many people missed the point here. The Two General’s Problem is about two armies launching an attack on an enemy city from two sides, but both armies must attack at the same time in order to succeed. This is nothing to do with the two armies fighting one another.
The message the first general sends should be “I am ready to attack, when you are ready begin attacking and i will join you.” If the message goes through, they both attack at the same time. If the message does not go through, they both continue waiting until another messenger is sent.
Have the message say send up flare to acknowledge?
get a radio!
“Attack at 12PM.
If you get this message shoot a rocket high in the sky at 11PM so I know you got the message.”
That’s why we’ve since invented radio communications. Even if radio doesn’t work, satellite will suffice.
assuming technology as mentioned before is not available, go low tech and send smoke signals
apparently the Generals are AT&T and couldn’t get reception in that place
This problem is solved everytime you communicate through the internet with a secure connection.
Give the generals cell phones.
Why must they fight?
Is it truelly neccessary?
This world is its contorted way because of war and fighting.
Can the generals not put aside they differences, march through the forrest and proclaim peace between them, their armies and the people they are fighting for!
War is not the answer.
The only way to be sure is for them to speak face to face. Regaurdless of the messgae, the varrible of dying in the woods can not be removed.
Unless they go around the woods….
Lol, wait 100 years until the internet is invented. Then send each other emails
Sometimes war is the answer. For example, in WWII, should no one have fought back against Hitler the entire world would have been taken over and turned into a ruthless dictatorship. So suppose that one of Hitler’s armies meets one of America’s armies. How do the two armies communicate with each other that they are both ready to attack?
@TigerOfKarlstad
You mean attack at 12 pm
and shoot a rocket at 11 am
or 12 am and 11 pm
The first general sent two messengers, one of whom went halfway. The other messenger tells the second general to send his own massenger to meet the halfway messenger. Because the halfway messengers are travelling through their own territory, they should be safe, and the reply will reach the first general.
get a phone.
haha 2 amy’s
I’m so fucking confuzzled…. Also, cute accent.
get a radio.
just send a messenger…
no really,the messenger COULD get captured, but there is no guarantee of that
Charge towards the enemy firing wildly like a madman. FOR GONDOOOOOR!
Get Twitter.
Send a messenger with time/date, send one back with agreement, again back with agreement confirm and back with a confirm confirm. Even if the last one won’t come they’ll both know the time of the invasion and that both sides agree.
See Molly, no need for infinite count of messengers.
@benshums Opposing armies don’t tell each other when they attack. That would be beyond retarded.
@Mynameisnotooo -_- they are attacking the city.
@jusk2ru He was referring to Hitler’s armies attacking American armies, not what was in the video.
@Mynameisnotooo XD Sorry, didn’t notice that.
Messanger birds…. not people
ATTAAAAAACK!!!
ask the green slime bag messenger when he gets back if he did his damn job
ask the green slime bag messenger when he gets back if he did his damn job
Back when that was a consideration, they would attack on a signal visible/audible to both attacking armies. The city could see/hear the signal to attack as well, but it would be too late for them to prepare.
They should all just die
ask leeroy jenkins, he knows what to do…
Tell the messenger to deliver the message then come back. If he is not back by a certain time, send another, eventually one will get through.
Flash Dance.
if you let the mesanger back to his original side he can deliver both mesages.
they should use twitter
they shouldn’t be planning to attack anything in the first place
A pragmatic approach to dealing with the Two Generals’ Problem is to use schemes that accept the uncertainty of the communications channel and do not attempt to eliminate it, but rather mitigate it to an acceptable degree………
@wjob48 hehehe WikipediA
They Text eachother
use a flare or gun fire
The first General should have selected the “request a read receipt for this message” box in message options for Microsoft Outlook. I’m a private in the Army and I know that! This General needs to be fired!
To prevent problems like this, computer engineers invented Positive Acknowledgement and Retransmission Protocol (Automatic Repeat Request Protocol) which are based on time-outs, alternate number of the frames transferred and the preset limit on the number of requests. So when a bus master has sent N messages and received no answer for X ms, it generates an error message which an operator can either acknowledge to repeat the cycle or just stop the process and check on the channel.
The Generals need to make a distinction between messages that require a confirmation and those that don’t.
First General : I’m ready to attack -> Important
Second Gen : Confirms and adds something like “End of Transmission” (aka EOT), indicating that he needs to confirmation for his Confirmation.
The First general needs to be clever and use a trap message delivered by his first messenger. The message should say that you would like to request one of their messengers to meet one of yours at a central point alone. Let that messenger transfer the message onto the messenger of the second general and both part ways. You can ensure the safety of the second generals messenger by making your man stand down. And well your own messenger might be collateral. So worst case scenario, you loose 2 men.
What a cute and interesting video it is! A nice piece of paradox which can’t be solved militarily but can be solved in terms of computer science. Thank you, Molly!
Text message!
In Mollys world there should be no war…
green lego men!!
@bk108533 …
I ment to say “indicating that he needs NO confirmation for his Confirmation”.
On the Internet you have two protocols that deal with this problem : one is “TCP” , the other one is “UTP”. Systems communicating with TCP will assume that communications are coming from the other end until an End Of Transmission is send or received. UTP does NOT do this check, here it is just assumed that everything that is send IS also received and thus is only used when message loss isn’t a problem.
call it all off and head down the pub
Send the messanger back?
Smoke signals…Duh!
Please, please, please, pleaaaaase…. that music in background. What game is it from? I remember that piece but can’t recall games title
send both messengers to the middle of the valley so they can find each other and exchange messages, then go back
Second general sends up a flare upon message received, which also indicates time of attack. Even if the mission is a stealth one, the soldiers will all be prepared, so the notice the enemy has will be negligible.
A .50 calibre shot to the face?
send the messenger around the valley.
or.
let the first general send a messenger with the order to fire a signal on a specific time and date, if the first general saw the signal, thats mean they both know.
Attack anyway?
19 24
AH!
Nuke the valley from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
neon giant foam fingers to make hand gestures with through the trees.
lol molly there are no rules in war…
simple, make peace and go home
it is war… politeness is not an issue.
Stop_and_Wait_Protocol… Just add a Timer..if acknoledgmentdosent dosent arrived with x amount of time… then resend message … Until U get the acknoledgment….
GIMME PIZZA!!!!!!! P.I.Z.Z.A.!!!!!!!!
Well, let’s imagine this situation arises, one messenger is sent to give the original message, his save arrival home is proof the message got there. Of course assuming he’s not lying when he says he delivered the message.
They should attack the city anyway.
Plan A : Both Generals attack simultaniously
Plan B : Just have them go one at a time.
@RyoLive what if he never makes it back home to the first general? he gets captured on the return.
In the real world, the generals would have previously agreed that they would attack at a certain time.
flare
@DavidSebua What if one of them doesn’t make it back?
This is a problem of “ifs”, what if the messenger doesn’t make it back? What if Cthulhu rises from under the nether to attack?
Sometimes you gotta go with your gut.
@DavidSebua But what if one of those get killed or something on teh way back? ;o
The general on our left, her right, should attack. The reason for this is that the other general on our right, her left, would most likely be informed that the attack had started by his 4 heard two headed soldier who could most likely hear the gunfire with his super-de-dooper hearing.
If I was the general, why would I let them know I’m attacking? BLITZKRIEG!!! AMBUSH!!!
Don’t inform your enemy of what you are doing, problem solved.
The messenger returns to the original general to confirm receipt. If he doesn’t come back, send another poor sod.
@DavidSebua but how will the genrall know when to send them to the middle at the same time
Radio waves can be intercepted too easily
Smoke signals. ‘Nuff said
BTW, the difference between a military and computer solution of the problem is that the latter is mostly based on a “master-slave” (server-client) interaction which means that there can’t be two master devices so when a master/client receives an answer/portion of data, it knows it can send a new request because a slave/server is always passive whereas two generals can be considered as two “masters/clients”, that’s the reason the problem can’t be solved militarily.
they should fire a attack flare and rape the enemy with their 12 yard dicks.
Smoke signals!
Shock and Awe!
Aside from all the content – Molly, you have a really cute haircut and dress in this video, you look like you did in one of your videos at the end of 2009!
I dont guive a fuck.
Switch to Verizon.
dont use messenger, use skype or ventrillo.
Both armies should just turn around, go home, kiss their wives and play with their children.
@DavidSebua But, how would they know the other general’s messenger did it?
I think there’s an app for this situation
Skype?
just attack, they will be dead anyways
Text message
they should use the damn internet.
@DavidSebua What if the messenger got killed while coming back?
Why doesn’t the original messenger go back to confirm that he delivered the message?
@DavidSebua But how would the generals know when the messenger was sent from the other general.
Fire two shot from the hill to the east as a confirmation
…isnt this a general problem in internet communication?
picnic by the river, maybe some kite flying too
@Crimsonterminator100 You Sir, just made my day!!! thumbs up!!
First, you take the chicken.. then the corn, and return the chicken.. THEN, you bring over the wolf, and sail back, and TAKE THE GOD DAMN CHICKEN ACROSS THE RIVER.. how hard can it be??
@Crimsonterminator100 but then how would he know that the other guy read it?
@Imortal122 text back got it bro
this is classic setup, been pondered for ages, it’s called “never-starting story”-dilemma
the question is not to get an answer, but to have an answer in question before it’s questioned
with answer, there’s no question a general had an answer to the question in the first place
and sometimes messages are just blowing in the wind
The world is round right, so they should just send their messages to circumnavigate the world to pass messages. There by completely by passing any enemy deployment.
fucking just kill eachother
Signal flare?
That, or an ol’ fashioned preemptive.
Send this message: “We are going to attack at 7pm. If we hear nothing from you by 6pm, the attack will go ahead.”
Shoot a signal flare up to show they understood. Send messengers to carry only substantial messages.
Nuke the other. No more enemies and no more annoying message paradoxes.
@DavidSebua but how will they know that the other will send a messenger? how will they know that they both plan on meeting in the center of the valley?
@DavidSebua but, how will they both know when to go in the middle and what if one of the generals die on there way to the middle
Get a mobile phone.
Just attack the damn city already! Sheesh…
they should each send one massenger out to the middle of the vally to exchange the messages from one to another
I say they should keep sending messengers.
@DavidSebua how are they gonna do this at the same time?
Clear the forest so they can see each other.
Send molly.
Dig up the bones of a Passenger Pigeon, use advanced technology to reintroduce the extinct species from DNA found on the bones, and send those messages over to each Generals via the Pigeon. Once each Pigeon has arrived, the Americans can blow them up with TNT making a large noise to signal the other General they have received the message. Unfortunately the Passenger Pigeon will then become extinct again, but ironically, the TNT usage was not random humour but America’s odd hunting style.
Yes, I assumed they were American. Those guys are always Green.
Woah dude thats like deep
World Peace solved!
send a message back saying open fire if recived and prepare to attack when or if you hear the attack
use a cellphone, fire at will, first strike starts the battle, shoot red flares towards the sky, then fire canons in the middle field…
Both Generals act as messengers (aka. direct com.).
Either send multiple messengers through different routes to minimize the risk or choose a different method of delivering information. For example: visuals(fire, flags, arrows), sounds(horns, gunfire), animals(dogs,pigeons,bees). Also confirmation only increases the risk so the first general should attack either way and send enough messengers to be sure that the risk of none of them reaching their goal would be as close to zero as they feel comfortable.
the generals should have premeditated a signal that both could easily send and receive that let each general know when the other one was ready to attack, since they didn’t they’re stuck with this mess. situational awareness, look around before you start shit.
@DavidSebua like she says at around 0:28 “what if the messenger is captured in the valley and the message never arrived?”
surrender and have a nice picnic with sandwiches and stuff
they’re attacking a city… the enemy will know where they are.
use flares
MOLLY, STOP TAKING ACID!
when one general sends a message then the messenger who sends the message can return the acknowledgment of message being received. The attacking general knows that the message has been received, the defending general knows that he is going to be attacked, no further messages needed. If the messenger does not return, the message will be sent again.
Use a cell phone.
One general sends 4 messengers. The other replies with 4 messengers to confirm. Statistically, at least one of each group will make it through.
Tell one dude to go send the message and come back with a reply. Simple.
Nuke them and go home
Attack at dawn!
Have the two generals meet and talk about whether or not they want to actually go to war and if so, when.
Have both generals use twitter.
Communicate via TCP/IP with response timeout limits.
send like 5 messengers in the first place with the same messages, at least one will get to the other side.
What, they don’t already have each other on Facebook?
This is totally ignoring the fact that the city could have sent the message trying to get them to attack at different times. Literally a man in the middle attack.
The solution to both is to have only one messenger, and have him go back and forth. Make him leave and arrive at predetermined times (Sunup and sundown everyday for example (Actual times may vary), regardless of if a message is needed to be sent, have him run back and forth, that way they each know that the message was received)
@DavidSebua Then one of them gets killed before the message gets to the General.
Three way handshake up that mother
Backtrace the message. If the backtrace has worked, then call the internet police. Otherwise, you might have dun goof’d!
messenger? omg are they still using msn messenger?
send chuck norris
Just fight already. General’s this stupid should just kill each other quickly
Just fight already. General’s this stupid should just kill each other quickly
Attack the god damn city
send multiple messengers
Open fire.
Just keep going. If they have an infinite supply of messengers then they will have to continue the confirmations indefinately. As such, nobody gets killed, no city gets destroyed and best of all, we can finally put all the idiots in the world to work and never need to worry about them again…
They should text each other
send a messenger to meet another messenger, each messenger returns with the outcome?
While the General who received the message attacks then the General who sent the message will hear the gun shots from the first general attacking, however if he didn’t hear depending on the time zone he would see smoke in the distance. But this all relies on the first messenger getting across in the first place so what happens if he didn’t?
Call in the heavy artillery
Advance and attack
guys, thisi is a thought experiment. Not a puzzle which you can solve.
This query highlights the possiblities of event during the absence of knowledge due to the lag in communication.
How do the messengers not make it through the forest? They haven’t opened fire yet.
Classic cryptography problem: man in the middle attack (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack).
Solution: Use a public key algorithm.
How do you think internet-banking works?
@drewman415 In this problem, the general sending the message is too chivalrous to do a sneak attack.
Use signal fires instead of easily capturable messengers. General 1 lights a massive fire which signals “Ready to attack”. General 2 lights a second massive fire to signal “Message received”. Unless your enemy is a black hole, I don’t see how this could go wrong!
go for the flank. fuck waiting slit there throats in the middle of the night
Use signal fires instead of easily capturable messengers. General 1 lights a fire signaling “Ready to attack!”. General 2 sees General 1′s fire and lights his own massive fire signaling “Message Received!”.
Either that, or plan ahead. Before they set up their camps on the other sides of the valley, the Generals meet and say “On this day at this time, we both attack”. Because as we all know, prior planning prevents piss poor performance.
@TrueSoreThumb why? because I only seem to exist on layer 5?
those two generals are idots… use signal flares… xD or if they are primitive… use an flaming arrow head… 1 shot HIGH for ready and 2 shots low if not yet… there done.. xD
@rustoopid92 Maybe he fell down a rabbit hole.
the question states that the city is in a valley, indicating that both generals are at higher ground. With that, it would be rather simple to communicate via “messages” and “messengers” eg. fire, smoke, or light signals.
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
just attack, im sure the other guy will hear the explosions
burn down the city so that one of the generals can see the other army
what happened to the ambush attack tactic ? oh I forgot British *sigh* -__-
Messenger pigeons, Smoke signals, Email.
General 1: ring ring ring
General 2: du hello?
General 1: yo mutha fucka u get mah message?
General 2: yea mutha fucka. Y u no attack?
General 1: just makin sure u gots mah mesage
The first general needs to send several messengers, anticipating that the probability of all of them being captured is unlikely. The first general must then commence with his attack no matter what, and the second general will attack, if any message is received.
Every time they receive a message, they should fire a shot in to the air.
Use GENERAL DELIVERY.
Have redundant lines of communication i.e. satellite link, Microwave, radio, physical cable, smoke signal, fireworks, SMS, email, UPS
Network communications should be over a VPN tunnel using multi-factored authentication to minimize chances of message capture, with authentication for client and server to ensure message has not been intercepted by the enemy.
these two generals should get naked and jean claude van damme
a representative from each meet in the center, carry a white flag for signaling and wait in center.
There is no 100% solution to this, since it is possible that all of the messengers get lost and the generals are never able to say anything to each other.
Simple. Walk across with the Message waving a white flag giving the Messenger a certain amount of time to return with an answer. Such a thing DID happen at the Battle of the Bulge in WW II.
The Nazi Commander sent a Messenger with a note basically saying, “We have you surrounded. Surrender or die.”
According to legend, the American commander sent the messenger back with a message of his own.
The Nazi Commander was given the message. It said,
“Nuts!”
@RuleOfRoseMysteries (Rim shot on the drums!)
There is a solution:
Just send a messenger every 10 minutes or so until one returns, then attacks.
On the receiver side send an acknowledgement to every message. If he doesn’t receive any duplicate in 10 minutes, he attacks.
This is a little like the unexpected hanging conundrum.. after two reiterations the logic doesn’t actually stand up anymore. To illustrate:
The first general writes a proposal to attack at dawn. He signs that he’s seen it, it is sent to the second general, who signs that he has seen it. He sends it back to the first general. At this point, both generals have sighted a copy of the dawn attack plan that has bears both generals’ signatures. They both know, and they both know that they both know.
@CaptKundalini There’s a huge difference between that and this scenario. That was a messenger from the opposing force who had a message for the enemies commander, there was no “what if he gets killed and the message never makes it” because the message was: We’re going start shelling the fuck out of you in a few hours, give up. If they don’t give up in a few hours, commence shelling the fuck out of them. Here it’s two friendlies trying to coordinate their attack.
@DarkEvilWorm002 They were too far from each other to see or hear a shot. And a single gunshot in a war is the worst method of communication.
Hope for the best, obviously
Send a gang of messengers and spread them out in fixed spots with good visibility. Each one can see the next until they reach the other army. When the message is delivered to the general the messenger waves back to the guy hiding in the next field, who waves to the guy in the next field etc until the signal gets back to the army.
Umm… Now I am no war expert. But if there is no apparent reason for war, why have it? :/
Couldn’t they just go home?
Why the hell don’t the first messenger just turn around and get his fat ass back to his own general?
If you hear gun shots form the valley, he probably didn’t make it.. Just saying..
She’s a babe.
flank around a bit and then blaze up the forest
That is actually a big problem in distributed systems, and subject to some master´s thesis in computer science
Send a text.
you’d use your damn RTO (radio transmission operator) like your supposed to!
Not attack?
Gunshots are pretty loud. Rush the village and the other general is soon to be followed.
Set a reasonable Timelimit for Messenger to get back.General 1 sends messenger 1 to General 2, General 2 sends messenger 1 back to General 1 within the timelimit, if he doesn’t arrive within the time limit send messenger 2. and so on.
Flare signals ftw
Get an infinite number of generals
run away, run away. i’ll attack
world peace.
SMS notification.
They should mail the message to ROCKETBOOM so molly can read it! So EVERY general in the whole wide universe (except regions with no youtube… but screw this guys) knows the message.
The recipient of the message could be instructed to preform a specific task (like play really laud music or fire a green flare into the sky) at a specified time as to indicate that he/she has revived the message and agrees to its contents. The sender would know when and what the recipient is do, and the message would of course have to be written in code. A code only know to the two generals.
They should make love, not war
Send the first messenger back!
Meet two messengers in the middle?
One of them just needs to record a 3D holographic image and send it through the battleground by way of an R2 droid. R2 droids are well known for their survivability.
FUCKING DIE!!!!!!!!!
theres 5 trees im sure they can see eachother
GO to the general and save some time! duh
They should PICK UP THE BLOODY TELEPHONE…
Or if that is unavailable, just pop smoke… that always works!
Send the first message, and then have the messenger come back. DUH!!! Then the general who received the message will have the message, and the one who sent it will know it showed up.
@Sammi32797 What are consanets? Did you mean consonants?
Use Twitter instead?
talk to them themselves!!!! lol
good God. love the hair. and toys. what a setup.
USE APPLE iPHONE FOR TEXT, EMAIL OR PHONE CALL
…………………….What? 0.o
Do they know, that we know, that they know nothing? That’s what I want to know.
If you want to get anything done bring in a Sergent.
Call in Jack Bauer
Have messengers meet in the middle. duh.
Use a radio?
Let’s see. Who or what would you pick to learn the fundamentals of TCP/IP? Molly sounds like a good choice
.
Could’nt they simply send the messengers around the valley instead of through it?
This problem creates a paradox and is as a result unsolvable. We studied this in my network systems class. Paradoxes like this abound in mathematics, like the Archer’s Paradox, which I believe Molly already covered.
It’s fun to think about it but it’s like asking what happens when an unstoppable cannonball hits an unbreakable wall.
Send your messenger back to the enemy general with a briefcase bomb. Surprise.
lol, after watching this video I attended a lecture on Best Effort delivery networks. The Two Generals problem was brought up. Thanks Molly!!!
Fire off a flare, duh.
They should send a Messenger declaring to the other General that they should both strife to find a new meaning of communication. The same messenger adds that his General will search for means of communication whether this messenger returns or not, and that the General who is spoken to should find a similar device of communication (let’s say, a cellphone.). Finally, the messenger adds the fact that his General will not attack before communication has been established. They also exhange numbers.
“He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all”
The general must attack as planned and trust that her fellow general will be in position to do the same.
Send a text and use the “Notify on delivery” option. =D
flares?
Flare gun?
instead of messenger use skype
Twitter. The generals should take to twitter:
“@GeneralStalin let the battles commence!”
they should just use radio.
Use Twitter or Facebook, its easy and quick.
Smoke signal
let the war begin, and screw the generals and their messengers
Flare?
Screw the messages. Attack at nightfall!!!
That’s part of the “fog of war” which was a much greater issue in times past. The charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava and the Battle of New Orleans (accidentally fought after the war had ended) are two stark examples of military disaster via miscommunications.
I think the best solution would be to have Molly riding naked atop a galloping charger with message in hand. Enemy interceptors would be too awestruck by the sight to intervene.
@123Spanishfly Would reveal the position of the armies.
@JonRossBrooker That would reveal their position too.
@criptikclues You use the words “pseudo intelligence” to imply that I am actually un-intelligent, while comically misspelling the word “psudeo”?? First of all, this is information is rounded numbers from the US Department of Justice and BATFE and the number of gun owners in USA is closer to 80M now. Second, do not try to act intelligent and attempt a debate by criticizing my exhibit or sources. Go find your own sources imbecile. Learn how to debate facts with facts, not mindless drivel.
Post it on twitter
Molly, you’re awesome
Can anyone confirm if she shaves her cunt?
Set the other general up the bomb
Let the Generals deliver themselves! ROFL
use a telephone
they could raise flags or make smoke or sth on delivery, so that the first general sees, when the message has been delivered… or sends a second messanger after a timeout to deliver the message again
make pasta! not war!
Use the internet. Win
Make legos, not war.
Signal each other that both messages have been received with an air signal of some sort. Firework, smoke signal, send a plane over head….etc.
uhh, use just one messenger and have him make three trips, one to deliver the message, one to deliver receipt of the message and one to deliver receipt of the receipt of the message.
if the sending general doesn’t receive receipt of the message, he should send another messenger and if the receiving general doesn’t receive receipt of the receipt of the message, he should just wait for the next messenger.
or, much easier, the two generals, escorted, meet half way and talk it over in person
Messengers should come back after delivery, if they won’t make it, they will know it.
General 1 should send a messenger to tell General 2 to send a messenger to the middle of the forest to meet with his messenger. The 2 messengers talk of what actions are to be taken and report directly to their respective General.
One word. Skype.
They should just put in their messages “Coming to attack you now whether you like it or not”
Buy cell phones, bloody cheapskates.
@Mynameisnotooo not if only one did the smoke signal and not alot of smoke like I’m only saying like smoke from a camp fire, like something you won’t see unless you’re looking for it.
Molly and her LEGO :3
@Pirusiandres 16. you shut up because you’re not funny.
@nanturadu lol the letters that aren’t vowels, yes however you choose to spell them
My “general”, if you know what i mean, has only one problem – i can’t have sex with Molly.
It would stop after five.
This would be because both know that the other knows about the attack, and that is all that is necessary.
General one sends the message.. When general two gets the message he should BEGIN ATTACKING.. General one will hear/see general two has began the attack and since he is ready, will start attacking as well.. General one keeps sending messengers until this happens..
text massege
They should take the initiative and attack anyway.
buy a watch and agree on a time.
If the chance of a messenger not making it is more than 0%. So they wont need an infinite number of messengers.The messengers have to be given a flare gun and if they find themselves in a situation where they might get captured he fires the flare gun in the air.
invent msn. or just kick the shit out of each other anyway!
Either that or expend all their troops on either side trying to deliver messages and end up unable to fight a war, go home, get laid, and enjoy the democracy they’re trying to protect?
As soon as the first messenger can reach the enemy camp, they must simply return to their own side and confirm the delivered message.
THEY SHUD SUCK MY COCKK
Run in and yell. “LEROYYYYYYYYYY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
@lanz0r4tehwin A carrier mole?
Send the messengers around the village.
Smoke signals.
Shoot their guns in 3 short blasts to let the others know they recieved it.
Tweet about it
Easy, they should try to keep it a secret from each other. Everyone knows that if you try to keep something a secret from someone, then it is a sure deffinet that the other person will find out.
Use a phone.
Are you saying that the problem is that the attacking general wants to be sure that the people he’s about to kill know that he’s about to kill them? Why send a messenger at all?
If the messengers go to deliver a message, he/she would need to return to their respective base. The messenger would be required to acquire a response before returning.
@TheLonelyImmortal Totally agree. Whats the point?
send in pottamus “did you get that thing that i sent you”
They should have devised a plan that when they received a message, they’d send up a signal flare or something equivalent to signify that they had received it… But I have a question for you, why are the generals trying to communicate in the first place, are they on the same side?
One of the generals should walk away , the other general will die of old age eventually
Uh…its called guerrilla tactics and it involves not sending a messenger at all and just waiting til the other troops fall asleep and give them one hell of a wake up call. >:->
There is no problem. You don’t need to have confirmation of every message, just the first two. Once a general gets a message telling him that his message about hearing that the attack plan arrived then he don’t have to care any more if his future messages arrives. OK, that was hard to get clear. To sum it up you only need 4 messages including the war declaration.
Cont. The problem is introduced if they think that the enemy is feeding false information. However to combat that you need only to have some kind of predetermined identifier, like a code (preferably one that the messenger is unaware of), ensuring that it is a real reply and not an enemy forgery.
@reiokami Yes, they are on the same side. They want to ensure they attack with full force because if one general attacks alone his army will be defeated.
artillery bombardment anyone?
They should play snakes over their youtube video instead of watching it. coooooool.
NUUUUUUUUKE
@Hedning1390 why 4? If the first general has to confirm that he received the confirmation, then he will not know if his confirmation was received. If he does not need to confirm that he received the confirmation, then the second general will not know if his original confirmation was received.
If you only need 4 then you don’t really need confirmation and 1 is sufficient.
One of the generals should respond by saying we are about to attack if your squad received this message please fire 5 shots into the air, thus commencing their battle
They can use the same messenger…
@wwickeddogg The system is set up so that you can never know if the last message you send arrives because the lack of response can be either that yours never arrived or that the response never arrived.. They had decided that they would send confirmation messages ie two messages has to arrive, so one + confirmation + the two that doesn’t need confirmation is 4.
@Hedning1390 Are you just not understanding that the second general would not know if the confirmation was received.
If the second general does not receive a confirmation, then he would not know if the first general received his confirmation so therefore he might as well not have sent a confirmation.
Just attack from 1 side. Friendly fire etc.
@wwickeddogg He doesn’t have to know that the confirmation has been received. All they need to know to attack is when and where. If any of them fails to receive a reply within a reasonable time frame I am assuming that one will send his message again. So if message two disappears then general 1 will send message 1 again, telling general 2 that message two disappeared. Now if message 3 disappears then general 2 will of course send message 2 again, but he can still attack since he knows the plan.
@Hedning1390 If they just decide when and where beforehand then they won’t even need to send one message.
I am assuming that if one of them fails to receive a message that the other one will not know since how could he know unless the other one sends a message saying he never received a message. In order for general 2 to know that general 1 got message number 4, general 1 will have to send a confirmation message unless general 2 receives confirmation message 5 he will not know.
@padybug16 lol, how would that change anything, the second general would still not know if the first general received his confirmation unless the first general sent the messenger back
Can’t generals afford cell phones anyway?
@wwickeddogg If any one of them is sending a 5th message (not counting resending of the same message) then both obviously have the attack plan information and know that the other party knows the attack plan too. What more information do they need in order to attack? Messages 3 and 4 are not bringing any new information and thus won’t need confirmation.
All i got out of this was “Lego makes toy soldiers? Where were those when I was a kid?”
send each more than one message, just sain
RADIOS????
@anarchypolo9 yea fuck this pirates and cowboys. gimme lego soldiers and Tanks.
@Hedning1390 the information is that the other general got the message. If they dont need confirmation then one message is sufficient.
Shoot a fucking flare maybe? The world doesn’t revolve around messengers.
@wwickeddogg They need to know that both of them know the plan, so they need confirmation. What they don’t need is to have confirmation on the confirmations ad infinitum. Once they are both comfortable in knowing that both of them have the attack plan they can attack.
he can just text him XD
@Hedning1390 They both already know the plan, the purpose of the messenger is to confirm readiness to attack at a specific time. If general 1 does not have confirmation that general 2 knows that general 1 confirmed that he received the message that general 2 received the confirmation that general 1 received his confirmation then general 1 cannot be sure that general 2 will attack.
After the general recieves the first message. Chop off the messengers head, lob it over the valley and begin the attack!
Sounds like the classic TCP three-way-handshake problem lol. In the computer-world packets are just resent until they get a connection or report a time-out.
@wwickeddogg Ok, but if there are two beginning messages instead of one changes nothing. Just add a message then. After the second message where general two says he is ready too, they both have the information they need. So two + confirmation + the two that doesn’t need to be confirmed = 5. My point is that you only need 3 confirmation messages since only one confirmation have to arrive.
@Hedning1390 Ok, but if the first general does not receive confirmation that the second general received the first general’s confirmation, then he cannot be sure that the second general knows that the second general’s confirmation was received so then the second general’s confirmation served no purpose and if it served no purpose then there was no point in sending it. The only point in sending a confirmation is if you receive confirmation that the confirmation was received.
@Hedning1390 Why would you send two beginning messages? If only one confirmation arrives then the second general will not know that the first general received his confirmation, so then there was no point in sending it.
I am not sure you actually understand the premise presented. Maybe you are just adding your own facts.
@wwickeddogg You said there were two beginning messages, ie the messages that are not confirmation messages: General 1 saying he is ready and general two saying he is ready. That’s two messages. The purpose of the last two messages is to make sure that the message before them arrived. From how it is set up the attack can not be imminent (they must allow travel time for the messenger), so there is time to confirm during the time between the point they both are ready until the attack begins.
@wwickeddogg Of course it will be ongoing if the messages read something like “I will be ready when I receive confirmation on this message” and not “I am ready. Lets attack in 2h”. However it is not a probable scenario and may only happen in poorly written computer programs.
@Hedning1390 No there is one message from general 1 saying “I am ready, the attack will start when you have confirmed that you will attack”. The message from general 2 says “I will attack only if I have confirmation that you will attack.” The message from general 1 says “I will attack only if I have confirmation that you will attack”…
@Hedning1390 The scenario is that the general needs confirmation that his message was received, with your message there is no confirmation necessary, one message is sufficient.
Green lego people FTW!
@wwickeddogg If both refuse to confirm that they will attack then what is the point of sending the messages in the first place? The problem is that there is no 100% sure way of telling if any specific message arrives. The problem is not that the generals are stupid and refuses to confirm to attack unless the other confirms first.
Those generals don’t deserve to be generals, I mean do they not know the advantages given by surprise?
@Hedning1390 No the problem is that the assigned value of each message including the confirmations of the confirmations is the same. It does not matter why the generals refuse to attack without confirmation of their message because the value is assigned by the problem.
You are fighting the hypothetical by changing the value of the subsequent messages. Your position is that the original message setting the attack is the most valuable and each subsequent confirmatory message is less valuable.
thats why we have satellite phones
@wwickeddogg Indeed I am. However imo the scenario allows for this because it is using a possible real life scenario instead of a computer algorithm or similar. Thus the value of the messages are not assigned by the problem. If it were then there is no point of sending even a single message, because in order to stop sending messages you have to get to a point where a message has no value, and that will obviously never happen if by scenario definition every message is valued at 100%.
@Hedning1390 It’s supposed to be a paradox.
@wwickeddogg Yes, but paradoxes either have solutions or contain logically invalid or nonsensical statements. Just as Achilles and the tortoise this one have a solution, mainly because it is set in reality instead of being just some abstract problem. The alternative to there being a solution is to remove it from reality (as you have done imo) by positing that the generals won’t be increasingly sure that the other general will attack with each message confirming just that.
@Hedning1390 I do not agree. There are different paradoxes and some take advantage of the vagueness of language without being nonsensical. In this case it would be possible for the generals to be in an impossible position if for example they had been threatened that if they attacked alone, then their family would be killed by their emperor. Obviously they can’t send a message simply setting the time for the attack, because then if the messenger were caught, the enemy would know the plan.
use magnets
@wwickeddogg Now you have changed the scenario to involve a risk in sending a message, however the message could be encoded or the messenger could keep it in his head. Also, as long as they both attack at the same time it might not matter if the enemy is prepared or not.
I have not changed it, that is part of the original hypothetical.
The Generals should send THE TRAVELING SALESMAN!